How come the Charger doesn't come with an MTX ? The answer is simple...

"doodon2whls" (doodon2whls)
11/14/2014 at 09:05 • Filed to: Hellcat, charger

Well folks, I am here to spit the straight truth at you....

Like many of you in Oppolandia, I have been lusting after the Hellcat twins something fierce. I have no _need_ for a Hellcat, but I definitely have much _want_ for a Hellcat.

Since the launch of the LX platform family of cars, I have been stewing over the fact that there was no Manual Transmission (MTX) option in the Charger. At first, I could understand that the Product Development teams had little time and resources to do a proper job integrating, calibrating, and homologating an MTX into this platform, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Low take rate. Costly development. Got it.

However, when Chrysler launched the Challenger derivative of the LX platform (LC) in 2008, all of a sudden, the MTX was an option. What gives ? How in the world could they offer an MTX in the Challenger and not in the Charger ? They had already invested precious product development funds/resources to integrate, calibrate, and homologate the MTX in for the 5.7L and 6.1L powertrain combinations. All they needed to do was get a longer prop-shaft for the Charger (the Challenger wheelbase is 100mm shorter than the Charger) and VOILA ! [Or so I thought...] The answer would come during a conversation with a friend on the inside of Lucifer's Workshop where the Hellcat was born.

I lamented to my friend about the Automatic Transmission (ATX)-only Charger, and received a quick retort: "Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. The ZF 8HP shifts mighty quick, and you'd be hard pressed to match the engine torque curve to conditions as efficiently as the ZF 8HP does." I guess my friend is right since the ATX-equipped cars get better Fuel Economy than the MTX-equipped cars. Well, part of that is the transmission calibration, and part of it is the limited MDS mode activation in the MTX-equipped cars due to NVH. All of that jazz is great and all, but I really like to 'row-my-own' even if it is slower and less efficient - I just enjoy the engagement in the drive.

I pressed my friend again... "Why no 6-speed MTX in the Charger ?" He paused... "Well," he said, "The MTX is a significant tear up to the floor pan (body) of the Charger. To do an MTX in the Charger would require a full impact and crash safety certification effort for the program. This is big bucks, and the product strategy folks pin the take rate for a Charger MTX in the low single digits." "Shit.", I thought out loud. "Yeah, so we set about making the ZF 8HP the best ATX possible."

So there you have it.... The Challenger body was designed from the beginning with an MTX in mind. Not just any MTX, but the honkin' big TR-6060 from the Viper. They had plans for an SRT-8 MTX model with the Challenger. Therefore, the Challenger went through all of it's impact and crash safety certification and homologation testing with the 'big doghouse' floorpan. The original Charger program had no such provision, and changing the floorpan to accommodate the TR-6060 Transmission would necessitate a full impact and crash safety certification and homologation effort which would have cost much more than the incremental sales of a small fraction of Chargers with Manual Transmissions.

TL;DR: The Charger platform does not have provisions in the floorpan to accommodate a Manual Transmission. Changing the floorpan (more than simply punching a hole for the shifter) would necessitate a full impact and crash safety certification and homologation effort which would cost much more than the incremental profit from a small fraction of Chargers with Manual Transmissions.

I still want an MTX-equipped Charger... Damn it.

DISCUSSION (100)

Vicente Esteve > doodon2whls
11/13/2014 at 21:54

Don't care. Manual.

scoob > doodon2whls
11/13/2014 at 21:56

Thank you for the TL;DR, although I suggest you put it in bold because I thought there wasn't one and didn't want to read LOL.

NotUnlessRoundIsFunny > doodon2whls
11/13/2014 at 21:56

This was a great writeup. Depressing , but great. Thanks.

DoYouEvenShift > doodon2whls
11/13/2014 at 22:04

Boofuckinghoo. Your a car company. Its your job to do these things. Get it done!

doodon2whls > DoYouEvenShift
11/13/2014 at 22:10

Well, considering they brought the Hellcat to fruition, I think they are doing a greatfuckingjob getting it done. MTX options have always been a challenge due to the low take rates on US models. They are a business, after all, and they need to make prudent business decisions.

DoYouEvenShift > doodon2whls
11/13/2014 at 22:26

I dunno man. Hellcat is awesome and everything. But, the way I see it, its like scoring a date with a supermodel. Then talking yourself into being fine with a dryhump.

doodon2whls > DoYouEvenShift
11/13/2014 at 22:30

Quite the opposite, actually. I have experienced the madness of the Hellcat. It's more like scoring a date with a supermodel, and then finding out she likes classic cars, spinning wrenches, cheap whisky, and getting it on in the backseat. You win all the way around.

kanadanmajava1 > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 03:21

Weird if they decided to use different floorpan in the Charger. I thought that the "wheelbase extension piece" would be easier to place in the rear section as the front part is more crucial part in the crash requirements and you wouldn't like to design the more difficult piece twice.

But anyway you should still celebrate as the manual is still available in the Challenger. I myself was a bit surprised when I heard that Hellcat had still had manual option.

William Byrd > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 08:13

Damn. Good writeup. I want a nice modern V8, RWD, manual sedan/wagon. I guess I'll have to get a CTS-V instead. :(

Autophile412 - what's the world got in store? > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 09:12

You could, theoretically, mate a TR 6060 from a Challenger to a Charger and make all of the mods yourself (as the consumer) to adapt the MTX to the formerly ATX automobile. I am sure that would require mucho computero changeos but if you are really that hard pressed for a MTX Charger you CAN do it. (... alll niight loooong) Yes that was a Waterboy reference. I'm old.

Sportwägen, Driver Of The Red Sportwagen > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 09:14

My opinion? Just get a new Chevrolet SS with the handling package and the 6 speed and get the Hennessy HPE650 supercharger kit or HPE800 TT kit!

crowmolly > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 09:14

That's a legit reason. The T56 Mag/TR-6060 is a big trans.

But I'm SURE there will be aftermarket conversions available.

PS9 > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 09:16

The take-rate on a top of the line $60k Hellcat is going to be equally low, and the re-homologation costs are going to pop up with the next platform change anyway.

Andy Sheehan, StreetsideStig > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 09:16

"MTX" sounds like a new Lincoln crossover.

Mattbob > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 09:17

this MTX acronym is new to me, and I hate it.

yamahog > Autophile412 - what's the world got in store?
11/14/2014 at 09:35

If you dig around some Mopar forums you'll probably find the build thread of one dude who did it. It was apparently one big expensive electrical nightmare, and not many others have attempted.

Racescort666 > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 10:07

Great write up. Ignore all of the misguided idealist high schoolers that don't even have their license yet saying FCA should build it anyway. I work in the auto industry and am very familiar with how these decisions get made. Spot on to what I was expecting.

crowmolly > Autophile412 - what's the world got in store?
11/14/2014 at 10:34

That was my thought too.

It's still early. I would bet that an aftermarket company will create a "kit" to help with the PCM, sensors and so forth. The metalwork... well, who knows.

crowmolly > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 10:34

What does the "X" mean?

Mattbob > crowmolly
11/14/2014 at 10:37

I'm guessing he's taking the Tx meaning transmission, or more correctly transmit from communications lingo (Tx is transmit, Rx is receive), and bastardizing it into this MTX business for Manual Transmission.

doodon2whls > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 10:49

ATX and MTX are common acronyms for automatic and manual transmissions within the auto industry.

Kinja'd!!!

Mattbob > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 10:50

I work in the auto industry.... I don't remember hearing either. I googled it, and this is the only reference to it, which coincidentally says it is rarely used:

this

Deal with it.

Autophile412 - what's the world got in store? > yamahog
11/14/2014 at 10:50

I assume it would be a huge programming problem. I wouldn't want to try it.

doodon2whls > PS9
11/14/2014 at 10:51

While I am lusting after a Charger Hellcat MTX, Chrysler could amortize the sheetmetal change across the 5.7L, 6.4L Apache, and 6.2L Hellcat variants... The problem is that even the combined volume for all three _still_ wouldn't justify the expenditure. Hopefully, they package the TR-6060 in the next gen Charger.

doodon2whls > Sportwägen, Driver Of The Red Sportwagen
11/14/2014 at 10:52

I have looked @ the SS, but it's not as handsome of a car...

doodon2whls > crowmolly
11/14/2014 at 10:53

If there were, they would already be out there for the Challenger. A hammer and a plasma cutter can take care of the dog house, but bye-bye warranty.

doodon2whls > kanadanmajava1
11/14/2014 at 10:54

It's not about lengthening the floorpan, it's about making more room in the forward part of the floorpan for the larger transmission underneath.

doodon2whls > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 11:06

The "Auto-Industry" is a big world, so I can see how you might have never heard them before.

These acronyms are used regularly in documents by Program Planning, Vehicle Develoment, and Powertrain Design groups. Since they usually address future product details, these are not documents that are regularly published on the internet, so I am not surprised that your Google search didn't reveal reams of pages.

Mattbob > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 11:31

But why use an acronym when you don't have to? It sounds like you might be in the auto industry as well, so you should know how bad it is with all of the acronyms.

doodon2whls > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 11:44

Matt: I served in the military and have worked in both the auto and defense industries. While I worked in the auto industry for an Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM), they actually published a Three Letter Acronym (TLA) guidebook to help de-tangle all of the acronyms in use. I think I still have a hard copy of the TLA guidebook somewhere in a box in the basement. It's worse in the Military / Defense industry where acronyms are used by multiple agencies or services to stand for different things - that's always fun... The DoD has a knack for coming up with catchy acronyms that have a cool ring to them. For example: High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle - HMMWV or "HUM-VEE", or Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicle (MRAP), or MRAP All Terrain Vehicle (MATV) which is a nested acronym ! When writing reports and documents in the defense industry, the acronyms are usually spelled out only on their first use in the document. Many reports have a table of acronyms used in the document just to help readers grok what they are reading. The DoD even has an online Dictionary: http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/dod_d… There are more than 6800 listed in that one excel file (linked at the top of the page), and it is not exhaustive as I know of some that aren't even listed there.

No one _has_ to use acronyms, right ? We do it as a matter of efficiency in documents (or conversations) where the communicators are familiar with the subject matter. Repeatedly typing Automatic Transmission (22 characters) or Manual Transmission (19 characters) over and over takes up a lot of space and saying "Automatic Transmission" (7 syllables) or "Manual Transmission" (6 syllables) is a mouthful when you are saying it several times in a conversation. Hence, the TLA's ATX and MTX.

PS9 > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 11:47

Actually, we have enough information to figure out how much it would cost dodge to make a 3 pedal Charger.

In 2013, Dodge sold 98k Chargers. If Charger sales behave as the Challenger's do, then we should expect a ~10% take rate on Hellcats. Given that Charger sales have been growing almost year-over-year since 2009, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to hit their previous peak of 100k+ Cars, and a lot of that growth could easily be all Hellcats. 10k Hellcats sold for MY2014 = ~$620M In revenue for Chrysler. This of course does not include dealer markup, because Chrysler would not get a cut of that.

We also know from Jalopnik that homologation costs are about $100M/car. We also know that manual take rate for the Challenger Hellcat is 55MT/45AT . This should not be surprising; High performance, high cost vehicle trims will have a significantly higher manual take rate than your Camrys and Civics will, given the target audience.

So in some other universe, the Charger Hellcat does get a manual and achieves a similar take rate to the charger with 5,500 cars sold. That would be $341M. No reason to offer manual on just the Hellcat if the car is built for it though; another ~10% manual take rate for Chargers overall would represent another $300M, given an average price of $30k/car. So Senor Manuel would pull in ~$641M for this car for Chysler in this case. Given that Homologation is only 15% of that revenue, does that mean it would be worth it for Chrysler to give us a Manual Charger now?

... Maybe. We would need to also know how much of the revenue is actually profit for Chrysler before we could answer, and that information only people close to the company and stock owners would have. Time is money, but money is also time; it might be the case that the $100M is an absorb-able cost, but the time constraints around re-tooling a whole factory and waiting for homologation approval would not be acceptable. Would you stop production on an in-demand product and remove a process that is usually integrated in the development cycle and put it in your way and cut production by 20k cars for a single year to get the specific equipment you wanted right now? 20k cars at an average $40k MSRP = ~$800M of revenue lost for that year + $100M for the homologation. I love the manual too, but I don't think the shareholders would accept my love as a reasonable explanation for burning almost a billion in revenue...

Mattbob > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 11:53

I have a lot of latent rage about acronyms because I work for a company where the acronyms may be based off of english words, or german words, and most of the time they are NEVER spelled out in the document. I would kill for a secret decoder ring for them. I do submit that I asked around, and people had heard of those acronyms used around here, but my initial reaction that I didn't like them is purely because I hate new acronyms because of the reasons above. Seriously, I have an acronym in front of me right now that I would really like to know the definition, but nowhere in the test plan does it say what it means.

doodon2whls > PS9
11/14/2014 at 12:25

Interesting logic.

It's easier if you assume a profit margin for each MTX vehicle sold. Figure $7K on a Hellcat (6.2L S/C), $4.5K on an Apache (6.4L), and $3K on an Eagle (5.7L). These are on the high side (~10%), but good enough for argument's sake. Then let's assume 1000 Hellcats/year (10%), 900 Apaches/year (~6%), and maybe 1000 Eagles (1%). Soooo, that's ~$14M in profit on the high side.

Now...

Tally up the Product Development time to prepare, test and report on 36 impact crash tests. [3 models] X [4 types of tests (LFA, RFA, FFF, 40% O/S)] X [3 tests each (two dev't, one cert)]. The number of impact tests could grow easily if side and rear impact tests are required - I am assuming not in this case. Each impact test is about $300K to $500K depending on prototype vehicle costs and instrumentation (number of channels). That's $11M - $18M right there (round numbers).

Now add the additional cost of production tooling changes at the stamping plant, and error proofing and sequencing an additional body type at Brampton body shop and assembly. Call That $1-2M. There should be minimal interruption of current production - a new florpan is nothing they couldn't accommodate during model change over.

We still haven't taken into account the cost of Product Development, Vehicle Synthesis, and Durability testing. Add in another $1-2M.

All of a sudden, we're talking about anywhere from $13M to $22M for an option with a take rate in the single digits across the Charger product line. notgonnahappen.com

The initial high take rate on Challenger Hellcat MTX is over inflated, and will settle down once the 'regular car guys' start buying... The population of buyers that are pre-ordering Challenger Hellcats this early are not a representative population of the total market. The ZF 8HP is wicked and while I like to row my own, I freely admit that the ATX-equipped car _performs_ better. It's really that good, I just like to row my own.

doodon2whls > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 12:30

German acronyms are worse than English acronyms... No doubt.

If you work for a large enterprise or an MNC (Multi-National Corporation), I am surprised that they don't have a TLA reference.

Don't rage on me, bro. I don't make up the Acronyms, I just use them for efficiency and they are a part of my vocabulary.

HOWEVER... You have to admit that after seeing/reading and saying/hearing ATX and MTX, it is pretty apparent what they mean in this context, tight ? I mean, I didn't even get into ESP or ESC, TCS, ABS and those are pretty common, too.

;-)

Mattbob > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 13:09

oh, I got them right away, I was just weary of ones I haven't heard before.

You can talk about ABS ESP TCS ESC etc. all you want, I know those. I am in a test support role for braking systems.

just as a fun game, I will pick up the first piece of paper in front of me and list the acronyms on one page: CAN, ECU, SW, STM, CNC, MSGID, NRC, PDU, and a couple more that I don't want to put here because I shouldn't.

Scott Nixon > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:11

Did you jack this lion's glasses?

Kinja'd!!!

Saracen > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:12

The fact that they did not design the Charger - a supposed sports sedan - from the beginning with a manual transmission in mind is the problem here.

PeteRR > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:15

To paraphrase George Orwell:

"Two doors good, four doors bad"

And I believe that's a sentiment we can all get behind.

west-coaster > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:15

Well, this should be a fun string of replies...

Kinja'd!!!

manticore33 > crowmolly
11/14/2014 at 18:15

I always thought the X was suppose to signify "transaxle." So, you had a manual transaxle (MTX) vs automatic transaxle (ATX) vs manual transmission (MT) vs automatic transmission (AT).

davedave1111 > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:15

Neither of those are acronyms. They're initialisms.

Luc - The Acadian Oppo > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:16

You can't get a manual because manuals are pointless.

Kinja'd!!!

Dangerous > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 18:16

I guess the tried and trued acronyms MT and AT aren't XTREME enough for the dood.

TheDouble-ClutchBandit > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:17

I'm pretty sure having a manual with that much power is way too much of a pain in the ass anyway. Contrary to my tag-name here, I like manuals. In a car with this much power and uncouthness? Not interested. Manuals aren't the answer to everything, especially in a city with stop-and-go traffic all the time.

Shaggy > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:19

I have a _want_ for the new AMG GT.

BoomPowSurprise > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:19

I already see why they chose to build it with a focus on automatic transmission - many police forces are moving to the Charger for their new vehicles so I bet this was a significant consideration when they were designing the interior. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Chaparral2F > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:20

The modern Charger has never had a manual transmission. The automatic is within keeping of its mission to be a performance oriented 4 door sedan. Nothing has changed. And, the automatic is faster than the manual. Take a moment to watch Jay Leno's video of an automatic Challenger along with Tim Kuniskis.

If one wants a manual, then the Challenger is the way to go.

webmonkees > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:20

Kinja'd!!!

Following the prior tip, acquire the cop sedan, remove all the crime grime, acquire parts, make hole, install.

Sell the leftover to a cab company.

(overlooks a thousand subsystems that would scream at such misconfiguration.)

Sorry, I thought we were talking about a 72. I know them.

PatBateman > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:22

I'm okay with this. The 8 speed is supposed to be wonderful.

Lechurus > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:22

For the same reason Ferrari and Lamborghini stopped MT's as well.

No one is ready for that much power to be managed by a clutch unseasoned. Especially when they burn them out within the 1st week of ownership. There were times I heard one or two Enzos having 6 clutch replacements within 3 months if the owners didn't wreck them first.

V-10's and V12's are a whole other kind of monster compared to this high strung Hellcat. Where they can do that kind of damage with 1/3 to 2/3's the effort and no boost.

ICantStandNewJalopnik > PS9
11/14/2014 at 18:26

You put a lot of work into this. Nice work.

Blakkar > DoYouEvenShift
11/14/2014 at 18:27

It's also their job to make money. If it costs more to make it than they will earn on it, they aren't going to make it.

mk6dub > Sportwägen, Driver Of The Red Sportwagen
11/14/2014 at 18:28

Yeah... no. I'm sure the SS is a decent cruiser, especially with the Hennessy kit, but it simply cannot match the badassery of the Hellcat.

Keith Moon > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 18:28

This is the first time I have seen these acronyms too. As an aside, I read you name with an extra o in it hahahaha.

Rob > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:28

Why are we using ATX and MTX? I thought those only referred to Ford transmissions (specifically 1st & 2nd gen Taurus SHO)?

AT. MT.

Or if you want to label like video games (Initial D comes to mind)

8AT, 6MT.

Rob > Rob
11/14/2014 at 18:29

To my point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_MTX_…

Blakkar > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:30

I knew it wasn't worth the money to put stick into the Charger. But the specifics why is news to me. It simply would not make enough. The Challenger was made for auto and Manual upfront, and the take rate for the Challenger makes it make more besides.

SpikeFiend > DoYouEvenShift
11/14/2014 at 18:30

I imagine their response would be along the lines of:

"Boofuckinghoo. If you don't like it build your own car."

Catering to 3% of the market isn't good business.

Xander, Proud of BOXER > DoYouEvenShift
11/14/2014 at 18:31

227

I thought a company's job was to make money not lose money to appease internet commenters.

Jeff Glucker > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 18:31

yeah, I always see just AT or MT... no X

Xander, Proud of BOXER > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 18:32

I read most of the replies to you.

I'm pretty sure 99% of the auto industry uses MT and AT.

dogisbadob > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 18:33

Didn't Ford use the term MTX since the 80s? First-gen Taurus MTX (with a 4-cylinder engine!)

Sportwägen, Driver Of The Red Sportwagen > mk6dub
11/14/2014 at 18:33

But if you have to have a manual...

Birddog > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:38

ATX/MTX are commonly used for Front Wheel Drive vehicles.

As in Automatic Transaxle or Manual Transaxle.

Stop adding an X where it doesn't belong.

jalop1991 > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 18:39

I like that you called it exactly like it is: bastardized.

Sharaz Jek > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:39

If you work for a large enterprise or an MNC (Multi-National Corporation), I am surprised that they don't have a TLA reference.

I work for a large MNC (hah!), and on our internal chat system we actually have a bot that will decode acronyms for you. Usually it includes a couple of sentences description as well (and, in a few cases, a couple of paragraphs).

ekimyllek > PS9
11/14/2014 at 18:41

...OR you just make it in automatic and still sell every single one you can make and just pocket all that sweet cash.

jalop1991 > Sportwägen, Driver Of The Red Sportwagen
11/14/2014 at 18:42

I'd rather buy the Hellcat and Chrysler's full-on, unlimited, never-ending, bumper-to-bumper warranty.

Try getting THAT out of GM at all, let alone having them cover even the window switch once you add a third party forced induction kit.

TechWeasel > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:42

Never heard it before today, and I have been in automotive publishing for a decade. MT and AT, yes. Adding the X is an affectation.

Gamecat235 > Xander, Proud of BOXER
11/14/2014 at 18:42

Psh! That's crazy talk!

Now get to work on my LFA powered Land Cruiser!

jalop1991 > Racescort666
11/14/2014 at 18:43

You don't even have to be in the auto industry to understand this decision. You just have to be, oh, mature—and not a "herp derp me want" teenager or basement-dwelling 20-something.

QQXQXL123 > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:44

I think the numbers would be worse than that. The only people this is going to piss off is a very small group who want a 700hp RWD V8 with a stick shift and four doors. I can't think of anybody who offers anything close to that at the price point, and so I think most of those pissed-off people will compromise and either go for an automatic, or two doors. In terms of lost sales, I think you might be talking in terms of tens of cars, and that really doesn't stack up at all.

Let's just be thankful that Dodge was thinking about installing crazy powerful engines in the Challenger right from the start.

Boss2452stolemylunchmoney > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:44

Ralph Gilles said the same thing on Jalopnik a year or so ago in one of those ask-me-anything type things.

Boss2452stolemylunchmoney > PS9
11/14/2014 at 18:46

But it didn't need to be crash tested again to make the Hellcat. A manual would have required that.

Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:46

This is one of the few places where assuming I had the coin to buy one of these, even if there was a manual option I'd go for the auto. Why? Well, for one it's the ZF 8-speed, which from all accounts is amazing. For two, it's not a sports car; if your goal is maximizing engagement why in the hell are you buying a >4000 lb sedan?. For three, it's got >600 lb-ft of torque; an auto kills the fun when you need to maximize how much torque gets though the drivetrain, this has more than ample torque for that to not matter. I honestly just feel that the auto is more fitting for the spirit of this car, and ultimately I'd have more fun with my torque converted.

Jesse Shaffer > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:48

MTX is an abbreviation for manual trans-axle combination- like in a front-wheel drive transmission or a rear-wheels driven rear-transmission car. But, of course, as Raphael knows - I'm incredibly pedantic, probably annoyingly so.

This was a great read. I never considered this perspective. The manual transmission is morphing from the poor-man's stick to the rich man's sword. Interesting

factsonly1 > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:49

Its important to understand that automatic transmissions have surpassed the capabilities of the everyday driver. It may seem cool to have an MT but its a huge step back for the vehicle's performance. MT may have been the way to go in the 1970s... But definitely not in 2014.

TulsaMtnBiker (OkieRising) > Gamecat235
11/14/2014 at 18:54

OMG. Don't tease me with such a unicorn.

Captain_Spadaro > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:56

I knew about the take rate being figured as too low. I didn't know the Charger and Challenger had different tunnels. Makes even more sense now.

Blair > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 18:57

what I gotta know is this......

....you mean to tell me that these new Manual matics transmission(paddle shifters with a torque convertor) are now fast them DCT?

Am I to assume that these will replace DCT in the future as they are most likely smooth, more efficient, faster and possible more fuel efficient. I thought the DCT was going to rein supreme for a long while

smalleyxb122 > Mattbob
11/14/2014 at 18:58

I also work in the auto industry - actually designing transmissions - and while my years have presented me with countless acronyms and initialisms, this is a first for me with MTX and ATX.

syaieya > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 19:00

Kinda sounds to me that the same mentality applies to this as to why there's no G35X coupe infiniti.

Sure, the sedan has all the awd bits, and you'd think it not so bad of a process.

And yet everything I've heard of people trying to do the swap between the two involves the word "Don't"

KingOfRallyAmerica2K14 > DoYouEvenShift
11/14/2014 at 19:04

You understand the concept of a business right?

Blair > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 19:07

Where would someone find out more information on car body's/ moncoques/ unibody types and constructions. This article has got me intrigued into the construction of a cara body

DatsawakoX > yamahog
11/14/2014 at 19:10

if your pockets are deep enough, anything is possible

crowmolly > manticore33
11/14/2014 at 19:12

It appears this is the case from what I can tell. Thanks.

crowmolly > dogisbadob
11/14/2014 at 19:13

Manticore33 gave info before. The X means transaxle, supposedly.

BigGatorChris > Andy Sheehan, StreetsideStig
11/14/2014 at 19:13

Are we sure it isn't?

MUSASHI66 > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 19:14

What's wrong with MT or AT?

Rand0nS > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 19:15

Because manuals are out dated and cannot match a well tuned and built automatic.

RazorGP > Xander, Proud of BOXER
11/14/2014 at 19:20

You mean GM? Or more towards the current Toyota end?

natrat > Xander, Proud of BOXER
11/14/2014 at 19:22

but what about all 3 of the "i just like to row my own" types who actually have the money for this

RW53104 > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 19:23

So, does this also mean you can't swap one in? It sounds like you could, it just wouldn't be as safe (or wouldn't have the same guarantee of safety).

evoCS > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 19:26

Even if the floor pan of the Charger was compatible with the trans, the costs to certify the car with that transmission would be considerable enough to scuttle the idea. Re-certification for that change alone would be millions of dollars.

nmalinoski > doodon2whls
11/14/2014 at 19:27

The Challenger looks better. (Not that I would buy either.)

Sportwägen, Driver Of The Red Sportwagen > jalop1991
11/14/2014 at 19:28

I know what you are referring to... My mom has an 08 300 Touring with the warranty. It covers EVERYTHING

DoYouEvenShift > Xander, Proud of BOXER
11/14/2014 at 19:29

You got me man. No manuals and morr moneys for fiat. Internet commenters never buy cars anyways

DoYouEvenShift > SpikeFiend
11/14/2014 at 19:33

Good point. Also not providing the product a customer wants isnt good business. GM built manual SS sedans when thr customers asked for it. Maybe we should ask in italian?

mk6dub > Sportwägen, Driver Of The Red Sportwagen
11/14/2014 at 19:35

But do you have to have a manual?

I know everyone on Jalopnik is like "MANUAL FOREVER OR DIE", but the automatic transmissions in modern sporty cars aren't the slow, clunky torque converters of old. Dual clutch transmissions are everywhere, and even some of the new ZF single clutch transmissions are getting rave reviews.

I like to row my own as much as anybody but to be honest the auto vs manual doesn't matter to me as much any more. It really depends on how the gearbox feels and functions, not to mention all the other things about a car that make it fun to drive.

At the end of the day, I'd rather have a better car with an auto than a worse one with a stick.

DoYouEvenShift > Blakkar
11/14/2014 at 19:35

You make a good argument. Now tell it to the Viper people, didnt they just drop the price 15k per car. That cant be good for business.